Taps for the Fighting Sioux name?!?

I urge the University of North Dakota do not just pick a replacement name without having a discussion with the Students and alumni. If you do this hastily you will do more damage than good. As many fans have suggested in the past, if anything UND shoiuld not pick a new name and or logo immediately but in the interim just simply be the University of North Dakota.

Dickenson, ND --- The North Dakota State Higher Board of Education voted unanimously to retire the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname effective Oct. 1, 2009. The decision was made at its regular meeting held Thursday at Dickinson State University.

The retirement takes effect except in the event that stipulations in the original agreement with the NCAA to retain the nickname are met by both the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Sioux tribes to approve the nickname.

The NCAA previously required approval of the nickname by both tribes for the university to retain use the nickname.

Fighting Sioux > Summit League

I was wondering when this was going to happen? You had to know that this was coming: earlier this year the athletic director of UND was whining about not having this issue solved and needing to find a conference. They should have thought about that before they went Division One, or UND should have moved when SDSU and NDSU did. Next, let the Sioux tribe at Standing Rock weigh in on the issue, especially after the Spirit Lake Reservation voted overwhelmingly to support the Fighting Sioux name. There is no reason at all to rush this issue, the Summit league will still be there.

My next question is why does the state have to tackle this issue right now? They still have till 2010. What is the hurry? Funny how they decide now just as the summer is starting and all of the students are going home at the end of the semester. Does this remind you of the summer when president Baker took old logo off the UND hockey uniforms? I can only imagine the stupid name the university would come up with to replace the Fighting Sioux name with. You cannot just change the name to make the Summit League happy. There has to be a process. You can't change the name in the dark or during the summer. The students and alumni need to give input in the selection process.

There is no reason to hurry. The Summit isn't going anywhere and UND can't play for anything for three more years. The Summit League is a second rate conference filled with a bunch of unimpressive teams outside of NDSU, SDSU and South Dakota. Does the university really want to give up it's storied name just for a chance to be in a mediocre mid major? There is no guarantee that they will accept UND even if they drop the Fighting Sioux name. If you think I am wrong, take a look at the impressive schools in this conference; I bet Oakland, Oral Roberts, Southern Utah, Western Illinois, Centenary, IPFW, is really going to fill up the Betty. Sign me up for season tickets right now.

Summit League 'intervening issue'
Tu-Uyen Tran and Wayne Nelson ------- Grand Forks, ND
UND’s chances of entering the Summit League athletic conference may require the state to resolve the controversy over the university’s Fighting Sioux nickname sooner than expected, according to the chairman of a state committee working on the issue.

“I look at the Summit League as an intervening issue,” said Grant Shaft, who will report to the State Board of Higher Education today. “It might lead the board to move our timeline up.”

Under a timeline established earlier this year, the committee has until the end of the year to gather information about the nickname and how it affects the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Sioux reservations and the UND community.

The state board will need the approval of both the state’s Sioux tribes for UND to keep the nickname under an agreement with the NCAA. The board has until the end of November 2010 to get that approval, although to make time for a transition period, approval has to be in place by February.

After speaking with Summit League and UND officials, Shaft said the board may not have the luxury of time.

Last month, Spirit Lake tribal members voted 764-371 to keep the nickname, although formal approval by the Tribal Council is needed to satisfy the NCAA agreement.

Some Standing Rock tribal members are gathering signatures to put the nickname on the ballot there either in July or September. The Standing Rock Tribal Council also has to give formal approval.

However, the time frame of the tribal approval process may conflict with the Summit League’s plans for expansion, according to Shaft. He said he’ll ask the state board to weigh both in its decision, which he does not expect today.

Rather, Shaft said, he’ll ask board members to mull it over until possibly the next monthly board meeting June 18.

Why is timing important for entry into the Summit League or any conference for that matter?

UND views the Summit as an attractive home for the majority of its Division I athletic programs.

The 10-team league is viewed as a good fit geographically for UND. In addition, a number of Summit schools — including North Dakota State and South Dakota State — have similar academic missions.

The Summit recently accepted South Dakota as a new member. Like UND, South Dakota also completed its first season as a Division I athletic program.

UPDATE: I will stand by my earlier statement; 'If you think I am wrong, take a look at the impressive schools in this conference; I bet Oakland, Oral Roberts, Southern Utah, Western Illinois, Centenary, IPFW, is really going to fill up the Betty. Sign me up for season tickets right now.'

I ask Sioux fans; out side of NDSU, SDSU and South Dakota what team on that list above really makes you want to say, hey I want to attend a basketball or baseball game featuring one of those teams? Not that many of us are drooling at the prospects. Is this really all we are left with? It's almost like were are bickering over scraps. That being said I do think the Missouri Valley Football Conference is a nice football conference and has some attractive teams in it.

Over at Bisonville they are discussing this issue, good for them, it will just end up being another food fight between Sioux and Bison fans.

VIEWPOINT: Nickname speaks to warriorship

There has been a lot of debate on wether UND should keep the Fighting Sioux name or not and I think this letter from a former UND student of Native American decent kind of sums it up pretty well.

After the pro nick name vote this past week at Spirit Lake Nation there was a few comments by a anti-nick name opponents that said the Native Americans that voted for the Fighting Sioux nick name just haven't been educated. (Article Cited) Well this person went to UND and he is proud of the Fighting Sioux logo and nick name.

CROOKSTON — UND should keep the Fighting Sioux name and logo, and the tribes should be proud to support the effort.

When I was a young man coming from Fort Yates, N.D., I was proud that the college I was going to attend had the name “Sioux.” I thought that spoke to the legacy of the Indian and his presence then and now, and I find the present-day logo to be much more positive than some of the caricatures I have seen in different tribal and Bureau of Indian Affairs offices over the years.

The name Fighting Sioux, for me, speaks to the warriorship needed to make a place for one’s self in the modern world. Warriors are proud men and women whose primary responsibility is to the well-being and continuing existence of the people. Warriors fought elements, nature and, when necessary, other warriors to provide sustenance, shelter and safety to the camp.

I think we have a strong chance here to correct the movie image of the whooping, vengeful savage that so many people have. We have a chance to show the truth and strength of warrior spirit.

This logo is a respectful representation of a young warrior, one who is aware of his responsibilities as he looks to the future. And isn’t that the desired goal of the complete university experience?

I am sorry that former President Charles Kupchella and his passionate defense of the name left the university. I think the tribes need to step into the gap and fight for the right to exist in image and reality.

I find the political correctness of the current situation misguided, frustrating and harmful. What puzzles me most is the stance the two reservation councils have taken. I was raised by parents from the boarding-school days who were not allowed to speak their language at their school and were punished for being Indian by being made to kneel on broomsticks. Those parents raised me not to deny my heritage but to be proud of it and not let anyone to diminish my right to be here.

For centuries, we have been subjected to disease and killings and hidden away on reservations that could not sustain us. Let’s be honest: History shows the goal of the now dominant culture has been to rid the land of us. Even at the Minnesota Uprising, the goal was to “leave no Indian alive.”

My warrior grandfathers tried to ensure the continued proud existence of our culture and people. Chief Strike the Ree went to Washington to try to get fair treatment and establish an understanding of equality. Chief Rain in the Face used his fighting skills to keep settlers from entering the sacred Black Hills and fought to protect lands and people and culture at the Last Battle.

But remember our strong responsible leaders, Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull? Both were killed by Indian police sent by white officers of the U.S. Calvary. Now, we are being duped into doing it to ourselves again: Kill the image. Kill the name. Then nobody has to remember we exist as a strong, accomplished and modern people with a history to be proud of.

The rules of political correctness are just another pox-infested blanket being offered to help us wipe ourselves off the face of the Earth. It means nobody has to admit to eliminating the Indian because we took the blanket into our own hands.

When I see or hear the name Fighting Sioux, I smile. I smile because people are reminded every day of a people who refuse to give up and go away.

The only thing offensive here is how political correctness has stolen the fight out of the tribal councils.

Keep the name. Keep the logo. Keep the legacy.

Uken is a member of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.

Strong support for Fighting Sioux name at Spirit Lake .

Well that is kind of how I expected the vote to go today. It also kind of reaffirms the Sports Illustrated poll that came out a few years back that the anti-logo people tried to shoot holes in. I am now hoping that the Standing Rock Tribal council will let their members be allowed to have a vote on Fighting Sioux name. Of course the anti-Fighting Sioux logo people will continue to fight but they were handed an pretty resounding defeat tonight. It will be interesting to see how the anti-logo people spin this. This also doesn't mean anything if the Standing Rock Tribe is not allowed to vote by Ron His Horse Thunder. Then in essence we are still back at at square one with the NCAA and Myles Brand breathing down UND's neck.

Spirit Lake voters overwhelmingly support UND’s Fighting Sioux nickname
By: Tu-Uyen Tran ---- Grand Forks Herald

The Herald is still trying to verify the results with election judges. But nickname supporter Eunice Davidson said her source at the ballot counting site said the unofficial results are 774 “yes” and 378 “no,” giving the nickname 67 percent of the vote.

Nickname opponents had portrayed the issue as a battle against racism, but voters simply did not see it that way. Some said they had heard what opponents had to say and it did not sway them.

UND needs the blessings of the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Sioux tribes to keep the nickname as part of its settlement with the NCAA, which opposes Indian mascots.

Nickname supporters in Standing Rock are working to get that tribe to support the nickname, too, but the Tribal Council has resisted a referendum.

A Spirit Lake nickname opponent, Terry Morgan, said his group will continue to fight the nickname, but he’s not sure how yet

Herald practices gutter journalism.

Our friend the Whistler from sayanythingblog.com has an interesting article on the city beats Tu-Uyen Tran and his shameful example of gutter journalism.

The Herald “reporter” says that the person who brought this up has an affidavit that this happened, but can’t find it right now. I realize that they are claiming that they are only reporting on the accusation, not the underlying baseless charge. But the fact is that this is a smear put on by the Editor and reporter of the Grand Forks Herald.

The Herald’s also been reporting unfounded accusations that the Ralph Engelstad Arena people have been flooding the reservation with money to pass this referendum. Of course the Herald’s reporter hasn’t been able to come up with any examples so once again he’s stuck reporting what the opponents say. It seems to me that the reporter could at least bother to find out how that money is supposedly being spent.

I guess trying to confirm a news story isn’t important when you’re on a moral crusade.

Not only is Ralph Engelstad the largest benefactor ever for a North Dakota college, his gift was one of the top gifts at the time of his death and is probably still in the top ten for the country.

I wish I was paying for a subscription to the Herald because if I was I’d be canceling it Monday morning.

Update: I’ve never done this before but I want to ask the Grand Forks Readers to send this story around. To do so you can click on the share button right under the title of the post. We need to show the Herald were outraged by the smear.
(Read the whole article right here)

Here is a hint to the second rate city beat writer Tu-Uyen Tran if you don't have a signed affidavit that someone claims they have it doesn't exist and until you have this alleged affidavit it in your hot little hand it doesn't exist and it's nothing more than tabloid conjecture. I would think ethically you shouldn't have wrote this story. This is nothing more than a dirty rumor or an urban legend that isn't going to be confirmed or never will be, but don't worry you got that story out.

Let's not let facts get into the way of a good story right. I would be willing to bet that you have no intentions of getting the signed affidavit that doesn't exist it either. Another point is your just trying to cloud the waters and muck up the story so eventually UND will be forced to change the name, but hey you had the story that got everyone riled up.

I also find it funny that that when the anti-name change crowd begins to lose the debate of ideas they resorts to dirty tricks and tactis the Herald city beat reporter plays right into their hands. If it wasn't for the coverage of the Sioux hockey beat writer I would cancel this rag and never pay another dime for this leftist rag. Mike Jacobs is a second rate editor at a back water newspaper and is by far one of the worst editors in the state of North Dakota that never lets facts get in the way of a good story. Maybe the people of Grand Forks should boycott the Grand Forks Herald?

The origins

It’s difficult to convey the impact of the alleged Engelstad quote containing the racial epithet, but the Herald is choosing not to repeat it because the newspaper cannot verify its origin.

Terry Morgan, another anti-nickname organizer, said Friday that opponents had a “signed affidavit” from a witness who allegedly heard the damning quote but that he’d have to find it.

The Herald could not reach him Saturday to see if he found the document.

Morgan said the witness was a white bartender who served two men in 1997. The men said terrible things about Indians in the course of a conversation about the Fighting Sioux nickname. The bartender thought one of the men was Ralph Engelstad and checked with his manager, who verified it was.

Morgan noted that the bartender said he was proud of the nickname until he heard those words.

Jody Hodgson, the general manager of Ralph Engelstad Arena and a representative of the foundation, questioned the timing of the allegation. This quote was spoken 12 years ago, he said, but it is just now emerging in the middle of a contentious political campaign.

This should worry logo supporters.

This statement should worry Sioux fans that want to keep the Fighting Sioux name. I interpret this as a plea to get the name/logo issue solved (Fighting Sioux name changed very quickly) so we can get into the less than stellar Summit League. There is a lot of pressure from the football and basketball cabal to change the name so they can find a conference.

Personally, I would like to see UND still try to get into the Big Sky Conference because I feel there are better more attractive teams in the BSC than the Summit. I think that the nick name committee should be allowed to see transpires at Standing Rock and Spirit Lake before the University moves with their decision. Again, the Fighting Sioux should not be changed on a whim but after all avenues have been exhausted with the two tribes. The university and the State board of higher education owe it to the people that helped fund the lawsuit with their donations. If not; please tell me why they spent a million plus suing the NCAA if the University was going to just change the name anyways? It isn't just about football and basketball. I also don't believe that the University needs to rush change the name and undo the work of Sam Dupris who seems to be making progress with his out reach to the two Sioux tribes.

USD to announce Summit League acceptance today
“From my perspective, it’s been urgent all along,” Faison said. “It isn’t any less urgent. There’s a new committee and they’re in the process of going through their work.

“Obviously it makes it even more problematic in terms of our league affiliation,” UND athletic director Brian Faison said. “We’ll have lost an important part of that conference.”

On Tuesday, the Summit’s Presidents Council voted unanimously to invite the school into the conference beginning July 1, 2011, according to an e-mail sent to Summit League member schools. USD will not compete in team tournaments that season, the last that the Coyotes are ineligible for NCAA postseason competitions.

In 2012-13 USD will be an active member of NCAA Division I and will participate in Summit League tournaments.

USD announced it would lift its athletic programs from NCAA Division II to Division I in 2006 and is now competing as a Division I independent. UND is in the same situation.

USD and South Dakota State, a member of the Summit League, will resume head-to-head competitions in sports other than football by fall 2011. The in-state rivals have not competed against each other in most sports since SDSU left Division II after the 2003-04 season.

The same is true for North Dakota State, a member of the Summit League, and UND.

So South Dakota’s good fortune means UND’s ability to resolve the nickname and logo issue quickly has heightened.

“From my perspective, it’s been urgent all along,” Faison said. “It isn’t any less urgent. There’s a new committee and they’re in the process of going through their work.

But again that’s a time line that we don’t really control. All we can do is encourage that they go as quickly as they can, and I’m sure they are.”

Faison said the nickname and logo issue has affected many UND programs. The University of Minnesota, for instance, won’t play UND in sports hosted by the school.

Faison said the Sioux might have been able to get the Gophers on the schedule for football, if the issue had been resolved.

The Gophers play South Dakota State this year, South Dakota in 2010 and NDSU in 2011.

Minnesota plans to play at least one BCS opponent every year while also committing to play Football Championship Subdivision (formerly Division I-AA) opponents from the region.

“If we would have had things resolved, I think we could have been in the mix,” Faison said.

It’s hurting other programs, too. They can’t get games or competitions against Minnesota. It means fewer opportunities to compete close to home, Faison said.

“At this point we need to get the nickname and logo issue resolved so we can move on,” he said.

More on the Fighting Sioux name.

I found some interesting points/things in a series of articles in the Grand Forks Herald regarding the Fighting Sioux name and logo. I think we have basically pinned down the major issue here. The anti-logo crowd had gained a lot of traction, their vocal minority was moving the ball forward and they were on the verge of getting the name changed, then the roof fell in on them. These people have basically had their own way for so long. The anti-logo crowd has thrown a lot of stuff out there rarely been challenged by the media.

Now the tide is starting to turn against them, and frankly they don’t like it. Notice the part of the article that mentions that the Spirit Lake nickname supporters, for example, have done an informal survey of tribal members that found an overwhelming majority approve the nickname and logo. Hum! Kind of throws a curveball to the people the anti-logo crowd and to the NCAA’s argument, I guess the people that call themselves Sioux don’t find the name hostile and abusive. Memo to Myles Brand and the hand wringing P.C. Nazi’s, are you hearing the people you claim to represent?

So basically one could read from this is the people that are know as the Sioux don’t want UND to change the Fighting Sioux name. So what does this do to the anti-logo crowd, they are not happy. I look at this way the anti-logo crowd is being beat at their own game and it starting to piss them off, because they are accusing the pro-name crowd of doing the some the same thing they do themselves. They are talking to people and informing them of their side of the issue. The anti-logo people are also trying to blame REA on the matter.

What’s at stake

There’s a lot at stake with the referendums because they may be the last best hope for the nickname.

A 2007 settlement between UND and the NCAA requires the university to win the blessings of the state’s two Sioux tribes to continue using the Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian head logo.

The NCAA considers the use of Indian nicknames in collegiate sports to be derogatory, but it could make an exception if the tribes’ leadership or their enrolled members approve.

Tribal leaders on both reservations have been largely hostile or ambivalent toward the nickname. The Standing Rock Tribal Council, for example, has both opposed the nickname and banned referendums on its use.

Tribal members, though, tend to favor the nickname, and supporters have turned to them. The Spirit Lake nickname supporters, for example, have done an informal survey of tribal members that found an overwhelming majority approve the nickname and logo.

The Spirit Lake survey confirms what Dupris had earlier discovered for the Ralph.

Jody Hodgson, the arena’s general manager, said Dupris’ most valuable role was helping his organization to understand the attitudes of tribal members and why they support or oppose the nickname.

Spirit Lake nickname opponents are scrambling to turn the tide, sending campaigners out to talk to voters, whom they feel do not fully understand what supporters say is the racially charged atmosphere on campus because of the nickname and logo.

In the meantime, Standing Rock supporters are seeking their own referendum

The accusations

Erich Longie, a longtime nickname opponent who’s now fighting the Spirit Lake referendum, is one of many who think the Ralph’s involvement is much deeper than just gathering information.

He theorized that the arena is paying the supporters to talk to their relatives and persuade them to vote for the nickname, using the traditional method of campaigning on the reservation. If that’s the case, he said, “that’s insidious. A small group gets paid, and the majority group that votes for it gets nothing.”
(Read the whole article here)

This is what the Herald editor Mike Jacobs had to say on the issue. It's pretty clear that is for changing the Fighting Sioux name.

Politics in native communities are notoriously complex in North Dakota and elsewhere. The normal means of gauging political opinion might be brought to bear — polling, for example — but since there’s little data about their reliability, there’s little reason to trust them.

So, the issue is in a kind of suspended animation, pending these referendums.

What are we to expect?

While it’s impossible to know for sure, it’s possible that the name might be supported in these referendums.

But will that resolve the issue?

Almost certainly not.

Opponents see this as a moral issue, remember, and they’re not likely to give it up no matter the election results this time around. They’ll continue to raise the issue on campus and in native communities.

That means that the issue will fester — until the name is changed.

It seems to me that this is the political reality and that the best move is to give up the name. That’s the only way to put the issue decisively behind us, and to move on.

This is the position that the Herald has held pretty consistently put forward in its editorials, and that it repeated as recently as January.
(read the whole story here)

So is Standing Rock going to vote as well?

This is the first step in the right direction if UND wants to keep the Fighting Sioux name. I think this is something that should have been started a long time agon and it still might be a little to late.

I also wonder if the Tribal Council Chairman Ron "His Horse Thunder" will let his tribal members vote or not. In the past he has been against it. If RHT doesn't let them have a referendum, what is he afraid of? I would say let the member of the Standing Rock Tribe vote. If after both tribe vote and the results show that the two North Dakota Sioux tribes are against the Fighting Sioux name then it's time to move on and change the name. I don't see any reason why UND needs to rush and change the name without first exhausting all steps in the process.

Sioux tribes begin nickname campaigns
Spirit Lake, Standing Rock reservations to hold referendums
Supporters of the Fighting Sioux nickname on the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation are seeking a referendum on the issue, similar to the one being held in a few weeks on the Spirit Lake reservation Antoine American Horse Jr. said he and some other veterans from Standing Rock will be asking the Tribal Council to let tribal members decide whether they support the nickname.

A longtime supporter of the nickname, he’s probably best known as a participant in a tribal flag ceremony at Ralph Engelstad Arena in October.

On the Spirit Lake reservation, nickname opponents are gearing up to win hearts and minds, convinced that, if they could tell voters their side of the story, they could turn the public against the nickname.

Referendums are key because, under a legal settlement with the NCAA, UND needs the blessings of both namesake tribes in North Dakota to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname.

The NCAA opposes the use of American Indian nicknames because it considers them derogatory. Nickname opponents agree, calling the nickname racist.

Tribal councils on both reservations have generally been hostile or ambivalent about the nickname. The Standing Rock Tribal Council has not only opposed the nickname, it also voted to ban a referendum in June.

But tribal members have been more open to the nickname’s use. In the Spirit Lake Dakotah Nation, nickname supporters, backed by a survey, are confident they’ll win a substantial majority.

Opponents have essentially conceded as much, but they cautioned voters to heed the experience of tribal members that have actually attended UND and felt the sting of racism.

Spirit Lake Tribe to vote on Fighting Sioux name.

While I applaud the effort. I just think it's a little too late and isn't going to make a difference. The only way it will make a difference is if the members of the Standing Rock Tribe are allowed to vote on UND using the Fighting Sioux nick name as well. That will not happen because Ron His Horse Thunder will not allow the Standing Rock tribe to vote on the Fighting Sioux nick name issue. I believe the name will be gone and that the University of North Dakota will cave to pressure from P.C. groups, this is a perfect example of what happens when Liberalism and political correctness runs a muck. The Basketball and Football teams needs a conference to play in and some look at the Fighting Sioux Nick Name as being an impediment to them getting into a conference. Oh yeah! The University is going to give up our storied Fighting Sioux nick name so we can play in a second rate conference (not even a mid major)like the Summit.

Group: Tribe OKs Sioux nickname on April ballot
By: Tu-Uyen Tran, Grand Forks Herald --- UND’s Fighting Sioux nickname will be on the ballot in the Spirit Lake Dakotah Nation primary elections in April, a member of the committee trying to save the nickname said Wednesday.

Eunice Davidson said the Tribal Council approved the signatures her group collected.

The group will be campaigning and reminding tribal members to vote, she said.

A legal settlement between UND and the NCAA requires the university to win approval from the Spirit Lake tribe and the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe to retain the nickname. UND would otherwise have to begin phasing out the nickname by Nov. 30, 2010. The NCAA said the nickname is “hostile and abusive.”

We Are North Dakota

I think Mr. Lang nails it today in his letter to the Grand Forks Herald. Why do we need rush to immediately replace the Fighting Sioux name? There is no logical reason in my opinion. Why not drop the name and have a dialog on its replacement? Is there is any reason why the University of North Dakota's sports teams can just simply be "North Dakota" during the transition period? When the University, students and Alumni find a suitable name then we can make the transition to that nick name and logo. I like most Sioux fans know that political correctness will not allow us to keep our nick name and logo, however there are 60+ years of history connected to the Fighting Sioux name and a replacement may take time. I have seen a few nice replacements that I like but we shouldn't make a rash decision.

GRAND FORKS — I agree with the Herald’s Jan. 11 editorial, “It’s time to drop the Sioux nickname and logo” (Page D1), and with its suggestion that the Fighting Sioux nickname should be dropped but not changed. Deciding on a new nickname so soon after dropping “Sioux” would create hard feelings for everyone who cares about the matter (which, based on the sheer volume of letters-to-the-editor over the past few years, is a lot of people), with the exception of the one person or group whose idea for a new nickname gets chosen.

Once the legal aspects of the matter have been finished up, UND can concentrate on the things it needs to focus on — things such as seeking admittance to a Division I athletic conference and recruiting, both athletically and scholarly.

Also, maybe we fans need to change our views of what dropping the nickname means. It does not mean that we lose the constitutional right of freedom of speech. We can still wear the old gear on which we’ve spent so much money. They can still be “Sioux” athletes in our hearts, if not in law.

Plus, who knows? After a generation of no nickname representation, the state’s Sioux tribes may want the name reinstated.

For now, we are North Dakota.

Dustin Lang

What about Norse?

With the Fighting Sioux logo debate up front and center with the dust up from the Summit league’s decision to not consider UND until the nickname issue is behind it.
As well all know this is should not be an issue because UND has to change their name/logo if the University can not get approval by both tribes. The issue is not going away and its time to consider the inevitable. Life without the Fighting Sioux nick name and logo. like I have said in the past the name is gone there is no way we can fight off political correctness gone amuck. It is just a matter of time before the name is gone for good.

I an not happy with the fact that there will no longer be a Fighting Sioux name/logo connected to the University of North Dakota. I have made my feeling known, I am on record of being against this change, this is a train we can not stop. I like a lot of fans are tired of fighting the battle with the people in the pro-name change crowd. The cards are against us and we can not win.

Maybe it is time to consider some new names to replace the Fighting Sioux with. My suggestion is Norse. Why not? North Dakota and Minnesota have one of the biggest populations of people of Scandinavian decent in the USA.

Think about it. (Logo related)

FSU gets to keep their logo but UND can't. Hum, interesting.
Now that would be what I consider a red faced minstrel.


Props to Scotty D.

A good letter to the editor on the name settlement.

Here is a good letter to the editor that was in the Grand Forks Herald today. Becker asks some really good question. Where the hell is the governor and the attorney general or team North Dakota. The attorney general and governor are missing in action as well as team North Dakota, the three amigos are too busy posing with their belt way liberal buddies, and shoving wind power down our throats.

N.D. lets nickname settlement fall by wayside
By Rich Becker, Grand Forks Herald
GRAND FORKS — Nearly a year after the supposed settlement between North Dakota and the NCAA over UND’s Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, there seems to be an absence of public effort in achieving a win/win solution.

UND has provided the largest arena of positive name recognition for the Sioux Nation on a national and international level for more than a half-century. One wonders why something as important to the promotion of the Great Sioux Nation’s accomplishment in today’s modern world would be held in such low regard by a few tribal leaders — such low regard that the leaders seem not willing even to sit down at the table, as the settlement agreement requested.

Even today, it takes two parties working together to build a better vision of tomorrow.

One wonders whether this lack of concerted effort is due to lack of vision on how to proceed or perhaps even worse, the lack of political will on both sides. Why are the attorney general and the governor not at the table leading the discussions, when the reputations of both UND and the state are involved?

Bill Goetz, chancellor of the State Board of Higher Education, seems to be the only person tasked with the effort, but few if any positive results have come forward. Many people feel that the only game plan being considered is one of retiring the name.

Two very key points in legal research done by a prominent Grand Forks attorney, Gordon Caldis, indicate that previous federal court decisions show that American Indian names such as Sioux are in the public domain, have no negative connotations and belong to no one person or group.

In fact, UND has a certificate of copyright on the Sioux logo that is protected by federal law. Likewise, courts in Wisconsin, Illinois and Massachusetts have decisions on record that uphold the use of American Indian names, logos and mascots.

The NCAA and the local group of nickname opponents on campus have not come forward with any case law rebutting these claims but only petition signers with personal opinions.

One wonders why it was not mentioned in any settlement discussions that the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights conducted an investigation on the UND campus but made no sanctions against UND. Further, the U.S. Department of Education has jurisdiction over U.S. colleges and universities, not the NCAA.

The other key point in the research shows that the NCAA Constitution neither grants nor even mentions any NCAA authority to interfere with member institutions in their operations. The association’s authority lies exclusively in regulating the rules and play of intercollegiate sports.

Again, one wonders why little, if any, mention is ever made of the local and national scientific polls conducted by UND, The Forum of Fargo-Moorhead, the Annenberg Public Policy Center and Sports Illustrated. These polls all determined that American Indians are decisively in favor of or have no objection to American Indian nicknames, logos and mascots being used in athletics.

One wonders why the extensive legal research done by Caldis never has been acknowledged by any of those in leadership positions who have received his information.

May I suggest that even today, it is not too late for visionary leaders of our local, state, national and tribal governments to come together for the people’s good and show cohesion between the Sioux tribes, the state and UND.

We all want to promote the well-being of the Sioux Nation and shake hands with that nation as a partner in the building of our great state. We all will be the winners when this is done.

Embittered hack Jon Hoff is at it again.

Former village idiot and disgraced former Grand Forks city council man "little Johnny Hoff" is back to spewing his disgusting hate rhetoric again. From time to time former Grand Forks Resident John Hoff will surface to take another shot at North Dakota, Grand Forks, UND or Ralph Englestad. This time the unamusing John Hoff is attacking the statue in front of the Ralph Englestad Arena. Oh course Hoff has nothing to back up his claims, nothing. I there was evidence of this being true I am sure the Grand Forks Herald would have covered the story already, it it was true but I digress...

Now our favorite neighborhood moron has come to the conclusion that that “Sitting Bull” statue in front of Ralph Engelstad Arena is from Nazi Germany. Oh really? Please little Johnny what leads you to believe this? I suggest you put down the bong and go to work.

Please John tell us what evidence you have discovered that led you to believe that the 3rd Reich is responsible for the Sitting Bull Statue. Please tell us where you got your evidence? Please provide us with the facts, not innuendo. Also, just because the REA management doesn't have the time of day to answer your silly questions and accusations that doesn't mean you're right.

IN THE MAIL: Engelstad Arena should come clean on statue
By John Hoff, Grand Forks Herald
Published Sunday, August 03, 2008
MINNEAPOLIS — Where did the “Sitting Bull” statue in front of Ralph Engelstad Arena come from? Who is the artist who created it? What specific Native American, if any, was it intended by the artist to depict?

After so many years, and with the UND “swastika scandal” fouling the very air of Grand Forks like the stench of Simplot, isn’t it about time to get the truth and to find answers, no matter where that might lead us?

FACT: No artist or country of origin ever has been revealed in regard to the statue in question.

FACT: Ralph Engelstad liked to collect antique Nazi bric-a-brac.

FACT: It is highly unusual, almost unheard of, for a statue to be installed and for nobody to know the name of the artist or the origin of the statue. Statues might sit around and their origins be forgotten, but newly installed statues are never anonymous. Why has everybody in Grand Forks looked the other way for so long? What shame is lurking in the shadows?

I strongly suspect the statue has origins in Nazi Germany. I am still waiting for management at Engelstad Arena to provide specifics — the name of the artist, the date and place of creation — to prove me wrong.

Check out Rob Port's Embittered Hack article on John Hoff...

Check out this post.

I was reading on line the other day when I discovered this post from former student and half hit Jon Hoff on the Dakota Student. If you have lived in Grand Forks since early 2000's you will remember this person is the same Jon Hoff we are speaking about.

I know it is a little late and if I had seen it earlier I would have addressed it sooner. Seems more of the same tireless crap is still showing up on Siouxsports.com yet again. Of course this person added no link or citation to their claims. I highly doubt the statue in front of the REA game from Nazi Germany. The FBI also determined that Ralph Englestad did not harboured any pro-fascist political beliefs, I think I am going to believe the FBI over some half wit.

John Hoff
posted 1/04/08 @ 12:21 AM CST
I actually love the University of North Dakota. But the logo needs to go.

Here's another interesting point of research: who is the artist of that "Native American on horseback" statue in front of Ralph Engelstad Arena? You know, the one that was "disarmed" when they modified the statue to be carrying a staff instead of a spear on the day the arena opened and there was a big protest march?

Supposedly, Ralph Engelstad bought that statue at an auction. But who created the statue in the first place? I mean, you know, back when it had a spear instead of a "dream catcher" on the end of a staff?

For all we know, that statue could have come from an "art exhibit on the races of mankind" in the Third Reich. After all, Ralph Engelstad was NOTORIOUS for collecting Nazi bric-a-brac, and was even fined by the Nevada Gaming Commission for his outrageous Hitler theme party. The guy had a picture of Hitler in his office, for crying out loud. All a matter of record.

But in regard to that mysterious statue in front of the arena...

We just don't know where the statue came from because Engelstad Arena won't say. But it's very suspicious that a statue sits in front of the arena and nobody knows who made it. And nobody from Engelstad Arena is saying who created that statue.

The family of Sitting Bull is on the record: they don't like the statue. It doesn't honor their relative, Sitting Bull. But the big question: who made it? Where did it originate?

It's no mystery where the granite in Engelstad Arena originated, however. India. Where child labor in the stone quarries is rampant. But the statue! Ah, a mystery. Who will solve it and get the glory?

Now some want to throw Hillary under the bus for uttering Fighting Sioux.

I am not a Hillary Clinton fan nor a democrat by any means but this is absolutely silly. The anti-nick name foes are always stirring something up and always seem to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Come on; honestly folks! Hillary Clinton is a liberal Democrat and I am sure she didn't mean anything disrespectful by uttering the Fighting Sioux nick name at a rally for DEMOCRATS. Again I am not a fan of Hillary but some of the stuff she has had to face because the main stream media's being in Barack Obama's corner is down right ridiculous. It is surprising she isn't down by 20 percentage points to McCain or Obama.

But Sele and the rest of the table said Clinton “stumbled” when she repeatedly used the full, and controversial, nickname of UND’s Fighting Sioux hockey team. Sele called herself a serious sports fan who’s not a nickname advocate, but not forcefully opposed to the nickname either.

By using the controversial nickname, Sele said, Clinton invited a divisive issue into the conversation that needn’t be there.

“I don’t think she recognized how contentious that is,” Sele said. “Unless you’re here, you can’t know that.”

A variety of UND student and faculty groups and many of the campuses’ American Indians have long opposed the school’s nickname. A legal settlement with the NCAA requires UND to retire the nickname within three years if it cannot win the endorsement of both the state’s Sioux tribes.

Clinton used the Fighting Sioux nickname at the opening of her speech after Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., presented her with a hockey stick signed by the entire UND men’s hockey team. She used the nickname again at the end of speech, comparing the determination that sent UND men’s hockey players to the upcoming Frozen Four competition in Denver with her own determination to stay in the presidential race.

Obama was also presented with an autographed hockey stick, but did not use the nickname while accepting it, joking instead that he’s a worse hockey player than he is a bowler.

Glassheim also called the Fighting Sioux statements an “error,” noting that Sen. Byron Dorgan called the team the “UND Sioux,” when presenting the hockey stick, considered by many to be a less offensive version of the name.

“I’m not violently anti-nickname, but it disturbed me a little,” Glassheim said.

Glassheim speculated Clinton was likely poorly prepared for the hockey stick acceptance, by staffers that aren’t sensitive to local issues.

However, he said, it’s just possible Clinton’s use of the nickname was a calculated appeal to her base. In primaries and caucuses nationwide Clinton’s supporters have tended to be more working class and socially conservative than Obama’s.

DS article on the Sioux name.

Here is an interesting article that I think all Sioux fans need to be read and possibly discuss it. Steve Fool Bear, Mato Iyotaka submitted an article to the Dakota Student on What it means to be Sioux. While there was an online petition to keep the Fighting Sioux name. I think the people we need to have a dialog with is the people of the Sioux, Lakota, Nakota nation. Contrary to the Sioux football people; Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota isn't going to play us in football no matter what our name is. It is a pipe dream by some at UND that we are going to magically be given a football or basketball game with these teams if the Sioux change their name. Heck, forget the snobby Big 10 conference. Maybe UND should concentrate on getting Montana, Montana State, UNI and some of the other Division 1AA schools to play us first.

I also disagree with Chancellor of the North Dakota University System
Bill Goetz that we need to bring this to a conclusion as soon as possible. What's the rush? Is Bill Goetz getting pressure from Ron His Horse Thunder? UND per the settlement has three years to get this issue solved? I think more time should be spent finding out from as many of the people of the Sioux nation as possible and not just the tribal council; and asking them what do you think? If the people of the Sioux nation does in fact really want UND to retire the name, so be it.

Here is some of the important points: This issue is not a clash of Native vs. White, or any combination of the two. This is an issue of people who seek to divide versus people who wish to unite.

Both races share these groups. The dividers respond to one another by creating turmoil, and the animosity that results radiates to the rest of us. Now our social atmosphere is in increased discord.

This topic has been long ignored by those who were indifferent; many of us believed this issue was settled in 1969, when Standing Rock gave our blessing to UND, but because of these divider groups, the issue has resurfaced and is now affecting us all.

Some believe that by taking back this given Sioux name from UND will result in some victory against racism, like a logo is going affect a racist person's behavior. We have no control of these people's thoughts and actions, removing the logo will not change their view of Natives.

To chastise UND for opposing team's antics and our states local bigoted population is fruitless; nothing good will come from it, but more importantly, nothing will change.

The people that create this turmoil will still be here. UND is not to blame; it is the immoral third party chauvinists who are. Reality: If we take back the Sioux name and logo we gave to UND, we are taking a piece of their adopted culture, heritage and identity. Sound familiar?
---snip----
We do not need outside entities speaking for us like we're some dysfunctional dim-witted defeated shells of our ancestors. The NCAA, APA, NAACP and whoever else who think they know what's best for Natives, do not speak for me, and should not speak for Standing Rock.

We are the decedents of the greatest culture to have ever walked these plains, and it's time to start acting like it. The self-pity attitude that many have adopted has reached its apex.

We cannot claim any honor by hiding behind these groups.

Chairman His Horses Thunder, I respect you and your accomplishments, your job I'm sure is challenging; I would respect you more as a leader if you actually visited our communities, and in a unbiased manner spoke to your members about this most debatable topic, or visited with the UND students who never experienced all the negative incidents others attest to.

It's evident that there are a very large number of your constituents who don't agree with what is happening. It's obvious this debate is split; I'm sure as the highest ranking officer of the Standing Rock Sioux Nation, you would want to represent us accurately. After all; it is your job as our democratic leader to represent the majority, a vote would settle the issue once and for all. (Read the whole article here)

The best proposal so far.

After reading this letter to the editor in today's issue of the Grand Forks Herald I believe this is the best solution that I have seen so far for resolving the Fighting Sioux nick name dispute. Let’s bring the issue of the Fighting Sioux name to a vote; I am talking about the members of the Sioux tribe, not just the tribal council. If after the vote; the members of Sioux tribe don't vote in favor of the fighting Sioux name, then retire the Fighting Sioux name for good. I honestly believe the Standing Rock tribal government does not really want to have a vote because they are affraid that they would end up losing the vote.

FORT TOTTEN, N.D.- I would like to take a moment to speak up on the UND “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo.

In my opinion, this issue is beginning to get out of hand. I've spoken to many people out here, and I can honestly say that there are many tribal members who support the nickname and wish for UND to be able to retain it.

I myself am honored that a university has a nickname that addresses the Sioux as fighters. For many centuries, that is exactly what we were - fighters. Now, it looks like we are in for another fight.

For the first 32 years of my life, I lived off the Spirit Lake Reservation. I fought for my heritage and for who I was that entire time. It's unbelievable the amount of racism alive in this world.

I think the nickname is a petty issue. When I was younger, my grandmother used to tell me a saying that I think should be said now: “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.” I've been called everything in the book when I was growing up, mean and hurtful things, by almost every race on this earth.

But never did anyone say, “You're nothing but a Fighting Sioux.” That's probably because it was true; and besides, it wouldn't have hurt me at all because there is nothing derogatory about that statement. I believe that's why I'm not offended by the nickname or the logo.

The NCAA weighed in about two years ago when it listed UND's nickname as “hostile or abusive.” I don't believe it's either of those things. I find nothing hostile or abusive about the nickname.

From my understanding, the nickname was accepted by our tribal leaders several decades ago. “In 1968, says (Peter) Johnson, the Grand Forks Herald reported that a delegation from the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation traveled to UND to ‘adopt' its president into the tribe and give UND the right to sue the name for its athletic teams,” the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported not long ago. Who are we to say that those leaders were wrong?

Perhaps they saw something that people today are missing about the honor of letting UND use such a nickname.

I agree with giving the final decision on the nickname to the Sioux tribes, but I don't believe that a select few council members can speak on behalf of the entire population of either reservation.

The only true and fair way to settle this issue would be a referendum on both reservations - a referendum in which each and every individual would have the chance to vote. A select few should not be allowed to claim that what they want also is the general consensus of the whole.

Only an open vote on both reservations will allow all voices to be heard. And whatever the outcome of that vote is, that is the resolution that should be passed by the tribal councils because that would be the true voice of the people.

Before I close, I must say one more thing: If UND must lose its nickname, then so should major sports teams. Get rid of the Washington Redskins, Cleveland Indians, Atlanta Braves and Kansas City Chiefs, all of which do nothing on behalf of Native people, and I find their usage of such names and logos to be very demeaning, disgraceful and offensive.

I've never seen or heard of a pro football team, player or franchise ever make an effort to bring social programs out to a reservation. They don't bring their United Way onto our lands; yet, they do make it a point to show that they are actively involved with inner city youth.

At least UND is making an effort to bring pride to a people who have been viewed throughout history as being less than human.

I hope to live long enough to see the day when we stop all this petty bickering about things that never should be brought up. There comes a time in our lives when we all need to move past all of this and become one race . . . the human race.

Black Cloud is a Spirit Lake Dakota tribal member.
>

I am not the only one that hates the logo Settlement.

I believe this is the kind of reaction you get when your elected political leaders jam something down your throats. Here are the results of an informal poll over Jim Dahl's Siouxsports.com

8% Yes
84% No - UND gave up too much
1% No - The NCAA gave up too much
5% I'm not sure - yet
Total votes: 967

I think the results from this poll are very telling, 8% approve of settlement, thats down from 9 percent earlier today, it probably will drop lower. who answered the question hate the North Dakota attorney generals settlement with the NCAA. While the results are not very scientific they are telling.

Grand Forks Life: The Fargo Farce

There is a pretty good debate starting at the Grand Forks Life Blog on the fighting Sioux name.

Grand Forks Life: The Fargo Farce

In case anyone is wondering the Force is UND's marketing campaign, it started first with the football team and then it was used with all of the Sports teams at UND. For the people that are experiencing a case of wishful thinking UND isn't going to change the Fighting Sioux name to the Force; I mean lets get real people, why would UND spend millions of alumni dollars if the school was just going to turn around and change the Fighting Sioux name. Honestly, for one it makes no sense economically what so ever. I would basically violate anything that is practical.

Lastly, If UND decides to change the Fighting Sioux name it will be because the Board of Higher Education in North Dakota deems its the move UND will make. Realistically speaking the next UND president will have little if any imput on the matter. If UND is going to change the name I am sure the Board of Higher Ed, the Students and the Alumni will decide what the next name will be. Don't count on that happening any time soon.