Mike Jacobs: Limit UND nickname vote to active athletes

In today's Grand Forks Herald, former Herald editor Mike Jacobs suggests that the current athletes pick the new UND nickname. I could live with that, but you're going alienate a bunch of fans. So, I don't see that happening.

Now, if they UND used this method to select a new nickname, there's a very good chance that we wouldn't end up with the moronic nickname Sundogs. Right?

Per the Grand Forks Herald.

The best, most credible constituency to vote on a new nickname is the university's active athletes.-- the people who will wear the name on the ice, on the field, on the track, in every athletic venue.

In other words, they are the one who will represent the university.

Their opinion matters more than the opinion of any other potential voters. I am speaking as three times eligible, as a North Dakotan, an alumnus and a UND donor.

I am willing to forfeit these interests in favor of a credible constituency that can bring an end to this long-running controversy. We've been arguing about the nickname and logo for 20 years. It's time to end the fight.

Say What?

I was reading this letter today, and one thing that the author wrote caught my eye.

So, if I am reading this right, now it's a newspaper's job to help people move forward.

A newspaper's job is to inform the masses via news stories. I don't think so Tim. We live in a democracy. This line of thinking would Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin very happy.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong. Feel free to chime in.

Per Herald Letter: Bottom line: UND needs a nickname, not 'no nickname'

And that's a shame, because we generally rely on editorials to represent the views of the "adults in the room." The Herald needs to help people move forward on this issue.

As a supporter of the nickname, I realize that UND and the state fought hard to keep it, but they ultimately lost. I am baffled by the opposition; have people not been following this for years? Did they really expect a nickname committee to choose "No Nickname"?

Redwing77's Endorsement and Prediction

by Redwing77

Let's Recap:

Nickname Committee failed in many ways (not all of the ways listed by Goon or myself, but I'm not going to sling mud at what is now a defunct committee).  There was, predictably, uproar about the omission of the "North Dakota" option.  President Kelley rebutted that he'll consider re-adding the option to the vote.  Stakeholders backed off.

The Prediction

President Kelley isn't going to be UND President in 4 months time.  He just has to keep the status quo until the new guy comes in.  It would not be unbelievable to have him drop something of a bit of a PR mess in the lap of the next President...especially if he feels that his replacement is someone who is a threat to his legacy.  Remember, pettiness runs hand in hand with bureaucracy.  Therefore, until it is actually re-added, I think his "consideration" of readding the "North Dakota" option will end with his consideration.  He will not re-add the "North Dakota" option to the ballot.  Here's the list of reasons why:

1.  He's afraid that the public will overwhelmingly vote for this option and force the past year or so to be considered a waste of time, energy, and worst of all, money.
2.  People aren't remember for changing nothing.  They're remembered poorly for only changing it partially.  It's all or nothing when it comes to politically motivated legacies.
3.  The mere consideration of doing so was simply just a PR ploy to get everyone just to back the hell off.

Let's face it.  UND has faced this type of thing before.  Charlie Murphy did the same thing.  He refused to allow his people to vote for the Fighting Sioux nickname, using hardships as an excuse, because he was afraid that his people would vote to approve the nickname.  It was an issue that could have been resolved (for or against) at his reservation with almost no effort nor time commitment.  But, it was indefinitely tabled.

If President Kelley and the University Senate (and the nickname committee) weren't concerned about the "North Dakota" option winning out and instead was simply out there to come up with a short list of acceptable nicknames based upon the parameters laid out by the NCAA and public opinion, this whole broohaha wouldn't have occurred.  There's no harm in having it an option on the ballot if there's no concern about the option winning.

My Endorsement and Recommendation

I am and always will be FOR the no nickname option.  It became that way when they eliminated "Spirit" from contention.  Up until that point, I was willing to look at multiple options (like being happy with something other than just "North Dakota").

Inevitably, my highly cynical and pessimistic outlook predicts that this option will not be available.

So what should we do?

My opinion is this:  Vote for "NoDaks."  It's a lame nickname, sure.  It doesn't even roll off the tongue as well as other options, sure.  But it is the easiest to co-opt and ignore.  Yup.  Vote for NoDaks and simply continue calling us North Dakota.  We cannot expect anything good to come out of the merchandise department nor expect the media to follow our wishes.  The media, in this case, will cover the scandal aspect until that blows over and then simply call UND whatever the UND administration wants UND to be called.

We, as students and alumni (and perhaps staff and faculty as well) can only control what we can control.  Students will eventually become alumni and alumni can do what they feel must be done.  Either shrug their shoulders and move on, or simply stop giving money and time to UND.

I hope common sense prevails and the PC agenda fails.

Grand Forks Herald: UND/No Nickname Option Will Be Considered

UND president Robert O. Kelly has done the right thing. In my opinion, this is also a response to the backlash from UND fans that were unhappy with the UND Nickname Committee deciding to remove North Dakota as an option for a final nickname. I believe this is the right decision.

Per the Grand Forks Herald:

UND President Robert Kelley will consider adding “North Dakota” to the list of nickname finalists for the public to vote on, he said in a letter emailed this morning to staff and UND community.

“I will consider the possible addition of “North Dakota” in the vote process,” he said in the letter.

The letter follows public backlash after the UND Nickname Committee earlier this week eliminated “North Dakota” or no nickname, from a list of five finalists for a public vote to replace the “Fighting Sioux” nickname that was retired in late 2012.

The UND Nickname Committee earlier this week decided to remove the option of continuing to play without a nickname, which the school has done since the last nickname was retired.

Of course, there are going to be fans that are unhappy with this move.  Personally, I am unhappy that Sundogs is still one of the remaining nickname choices.

Dave St. Peter on the 'No Nickname' Option for UND

If you haven't seen this, UND Nickname Committee member Dave St. Peter, Minnesota Twins president, gives his opinion on the North Dakota nickname option.

  Per Howard Sinker, Star Tribune.

St. Peter said he had two reasons for wanting to keep the no-nickname option. "I thought there was something incredibly powerful and unique about having the words 'North Dakota' stand alone without a nickname. I thought maybe this was a way to reinforce the heritage of the state. Others did not share it but it was something I got personally comfortable with watching our teams perform as 'North Dakota. The second reason was that it was clear to me from the constituency I represented (on the committee), the alumni base, felt very strongly about 'North Dakota' being an option -- and all of the public polling available seemed to indicate that North Dakota was clearly the popular choice. I wasn't comfortable eliminating it."

St. Peter added: "Some of the committee might disagree, but I think the politically correct thing to do was to eliminate 'North Dakota.' That was almost the sense I had, because of the connection to 'Fighting Sioux.' "

The Catch-22 of Political Entities aka Why the Nickname Committee is Doomed to Fail

by Redwing77

Goon asked me to turn my rather long winded comment into a blog post.  So, here it is, with a little more explanation:

It's sad that I say this about my alma mater but... I am beginning to think that this is Marquette all over again.

Brief Recap:  Marquette used to be known as the Warriors and were under as much (perhaps more) pressure to change the nickname.  The Board (including the University President) decided to change the nickname to "The Gold" away from the student and alumni supported nickname, "Golden Eagles."  The result was a firestorm of consternation and animosity towards the University by just about everyone.  Like typical politicians, the powers that be spoke of stunned confusion wondering why such a backlash ensued, as the nickname's unofficial nickname was "The Blue and Gold" and "The Gold" was simply a reference back to the school colors.  Needless to say, they quickly turned the nickname over to the alumni and students (they gave 10 options) and Golden Eagles was resumed.

The TRUTH:  The Fighting Sioux nickname is dead.  All those UND fans and alumni who say "Fighting Sioux forever" and other such claptrap are just flatout delusional.  I will side with the PC crowd in say "move on."  However, that's the ONLY thing I'll side with them about.

In any case, I wonder how much money UND is standing to lose over this whole thing.
It's funny.  Congresspeople often go against their constituency for a variety of reasons (usually due to special interest groups, riders on the bill that favors their constituency (see Bridge to Nowhere), or some sort of personal or party agenda) and though people gripe about it, they get over it because it may be for the better of the nation somehow and we, as the public, may not have all of the information they have.

This is NOT that case.  In the case of a nickname, it's an identity of the University's staff, faculty, students, athletes, and alumni (not to mention fans and supporting community) and it CAN be decided by popularity as long as the name that is selected follows the criteria set up by the overseeing body: in this case both the UND President and Board of Directors and the NCAA.

Sadly, at one point I looked up to Bridewell.  He was my advisor at UND and I really liked the man, but his comment in that article said it best:  "If we say no nickname, then Kelley might dissolve the committee."  The committee has tasted power and it has corrupted most of the committee.  This nickname is its legacy and they do not want to be seen as being sacrificed in the name of what the people want.  They want to make a change.  Let's call this "Myles Brand Syndrome."  They are making a change for the sake of making a change.  In political circles, it's called "political suicide." 

Not all of the committee is a farce, as you say.  There were a few, like St. Peters and Goehring, who understand what the TRUE purpose of the nickname committee is:  To produce a short, concise list of acceptable nicknames for the people to vote upon to help direct the future identity of the University.  Having UND/North Dakota on the ballot does not endanger the committee at all, as they'd also include their idiotic suggestions like Fighting Hawks (which I thought was eliminated from the final five), Sundogs, and the future lawsuit favorite North Stars.

Politically speaking, this is what the PC crowd tainted with liberalism truly represent.  The public at large is too clueless, racist, sexist, and ignorant to know what is best.  There needs to be an overriding authority to tell them what is best for them and to "guide" them towards "enlightenment."  Orwell, eat your heart out.

My guess that, if the vote isn't a hoax, people will now overwhelmingly vote in "NoDaks" and simply continue to use North Dakota.  It's what I'd do.

Sadly, I fear that the backlash will cost UND a LOT of money.  I wish I could find out how long Marquette was known as "The Gold" but it wasn't very long... perhaps less than 6 months.

So, Mr. Bridewell, what's better:  Be disbanded for standing up for what the public wants or being nullified in effigy a few months after your disasterous decision goes final when the University is forced to revisit the nickname due to massive loss of alumni support?

Edit: UND Nickname Selection Process is a Farce

I have been on vacation since last Thursday evening, and I left my laptop computer at home, instead of bringing it on my vacation. So, yes, I am a little late to the party. That doesn't mean I haven't been thinking/seething about this. Because I have.

First, while I love the Fighting Sioux nickname, I understand that the University of North Dakota can not go back to being the Fighting Sioux. It's never going to happen, especially in today's day and age where you have a God-given right to not be offended. That's not the point of this blog post. I am just going to give my brief opinion on a the very flawed process UND has taken to come up with a new nickname.

In my opinion, the UND Nickname Committee should go back to the nickname suggestions that didn't make the list and find some better choices. There are many nicknames on that list that are better than five remaining choices. Without looking at the list, Aeros, Aviators and Nokota come to mind. Sad that they didn't make the list.

I have had a few people tweet me that UND has already picked a new nickname and this is nothing but a side show or a farce. It "almost" looks like this becoming reality. It's a matter of if UND is the North Stars or Sundogs. North Stars is better than Sundogs. 

@ryahanson rumor has it that North Stars has already been chosen and any kind of public vote will be for show and not mean anything #bogus

— TK (@tjksports) July 22, 2015

Last night, while I was watching television with my father, Twitter blew up with the announcement that the UND Nickname Committee had decided to drop North Dakota as an option from the remaining nickname choices. Another great decision from that group. Shocking, yes, but not unpredictable.

There're a lot of people that aren't happy with this decision, to include Karl Goehring. If you don't believe people are upset with this decision go back and check out twitter.

Per the Grand Forks Herald.

The decision to eliminate playing as UND/North Dakota didn't please everyone on the committee, as Chairman Karl Goehring wanted to let the public decide whether to essentially move forward with no new nickname.

"I have several friends who are athletes, and not a single one plays hockey," committee member and UND student Jazmyn Friesz said. "They just want to stay UND, not to bring back Fighting Sioux."

Regardless, committee member and UND alumna Diane Hillebrand made the motion to eliminate UND/North Dakota. Committee member and UND faculty member John Bridewell seconded it.

The motion passed seven to four with Friesz, Goehring and committee members Dave St. Peter and Lowell Schweigert, a UND alumnus, casting dissenting votes.

While I believe the UND Nickname Committed has done a subpar job, they're in a tough spot. There're many people from the politically correct crowd chirping in their ear and telling the UND Nickname Committee how they've got to pick something, just not North Dakota.

Moving forward with simply "North Dakota" can't be an option. Just ask the anti-Fighting Sioux nickname crowd (obviously, there's other fans that don't like the no nickname option, I realize that, they're just not as vocal). Their reason, remaining UND or North Dakota is a pseudo way of keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname alive. Whatever. 

So, what do you tell the UND athletes that are chiming in on Twitter today? Does their opinion not matter? Their opinion matters more than some troll from another fan base that replies to their tweet lecturing them and telling them that they have to move on. It's also easy for a newspaper writer from another town to tell people to move on. Especially when they have no skin in the game. 

I have chatted with a number of former athletes that would like to remain simply "North Dakota". I guess their opinion doesn't matter all that much. 

Tough break for the "if we can't have our old nickname, we won't have any nickname" crowd. Time to grow up. https://t.co/8xbGo0mfLb

— Stu Whitney (@stuwhitney) July 22, 2015

Let me tell you something; when the UND president picks one of the five remaining horrible nicknames, people are still going to yell "go Sioux" at UND sporting events. That's a true statement. It's going to happen. You can bank on it. 

When the national anthem is played at UND sporting events, they're still going to have fans yelling "Sioux." No matter how hard the handwringers try, it's not going away. Not anytime soon. The anti-Fighting Sioux nickname people can scream and write all of the letters to the editors that they want, but it won't change anything.

I want to caution President Robert O. Kelly, if he decides to go ahead and disregard the will the people (Alumni, former student-athletes, current athletes and current UND students) and picks the wrong nickname, i.e. Sundogs, he's going to set off a firestorm.

IMHO, I am for any  remaining nickname, just not Sundogs. I preferred North Dakota. 

More flawed logic

Per Dave Davidson, Sr. Devils Lake ND.

To replace an honorable and beloved name that stood for 80 years with one as suggested is calloused and insulting to American Indians.

Grand Forks Red River High School—whose nickname is Roughriders—is not national; it is local. It is not moving on from an American Indian image and never had one. It is an entirely different situation, and in its case, the nickname is neither hostile nor derogatory, and it represents the high school with dignity. There are no similarities to the UND situation.

For these reasons as well as many others, Roughriders should not be considered as a nickname for UND. If the Herald were an investigative-reporting paper rather than an advisee-group-supporter paper and told the whole truth instead of convenient truths only, then the state could make an informed decision.

This line of thinking is how the Univeristy of North Dakota ends up with the unacceptable nickname Sundogs.  So, now Rough Riders is offensive to Native Americans and we can't have that nickname? I am endorsing anything but Sundogs.

@goon48 @SueHawkyFan @tadder52 @siouxsports pic.twitter.com/hqI5XkWm1Y

— Mitch Meyer (@MrMitchMeyer) July 22, 2015

Grand Forks Herald Letter: Few know sundogs, but everyone knows Roughriders

I have been focusing on the nickname issue because I think it's an important issue. First, I think the UND nickname committee eliminated names that are a lot better than the remaining final seven nicknames. Also, as I mentioned last week, I think we need to reject the Sundogs nickname.

Finally, I am also concerned that UND nickname committee is going to pick a very bad nickname that none of us can get behind. If the nickname committee wants to start a major firestorm, pick Sundogs.

here's one of the latest letters from the Grand Forks Herald. It was kind of long so I took the main point from the letter. You can read the whole thing by clicking on the link.

Eric Groves, BRECKENRIDGE, Colo -- Now to my main point: Sundogs. This is a weather phenomenon that does happen in North Dakota, among other cold weather states. Sure, it is kind of cool to see, but is this a name that deserves to be the nickname of the state's flagship university—UND?

Some have said this represents Grand Forks. This is not the University of Grand Forks, so let's think bigger than that.

To me, the answer is a resounding no. I do not want my university's nickname to be a weather phenomenon. I definitely do not want the logo to be some sort of rainbow.

There are many state universities that adopt their state's nickname as their nickname. Of the seven names the committee and consultants deemed "popular", there is one that does stick out. Roughriders. Which happens to be one of North Dakota's nicknames: the Roughrider State.

A common argument is that Red River High School in Grand Forks is the Roughriders. Hazen High School in Hazen, N.D., is the bison, the exact same name as another major university in the state. I can live with that.

More Flawed Logic

I am going to be here pointing out the flawed points about adopting the Sundogs nickname. I just found this little doozy. This is why I am no board with any of the other six nickname choices that aren't Sundogs.

There was an letter published June 25 in support of the name and logo of Sundogs for UND (Making the case for UND Sundogs," Page A4). I concur for the reasons stated, but additionally, Sundogs would provide perfect imagery for and connections with UND's membership in the Big Sky conference.

It's time for those associated with the university to turn the page and move forward with a new chapter. Those favoring just "North Dakota" are those who cling to using "Fighting Sioux," unofficially, forever.

Loyalties should be toward the institution, not imagery. Just look at all the high school consolidations and sports cooperatives that not only changed logos and mascots but also school colors as well. (Dave Davidson Sr., Devils Lake)

Grand Forks Herald Letter: The truth: UND, system officials wanted the name change

As you have nave noticed, I have been scanning the Grand Forks opinion page. Like one of my Facebook friends suggested, I am actually surprised that the Herald Editorial staff approved this letter. This letter was too big to post in it's entirely, so I posted the part that makes the point. Thoughts?

(Read the whole article at the Herald) That does not mean restoring the name and image. It means for the university and university system to tell the truth.

We faced so much deceit and deception for seven long years at the hands of the state's higher education system. We were not fighting the NCAA as much as the state's education system. We would have stopped fighting at any time if they were honest enough to say that they were the ones—not the Sioux—who wanted the name changed.

As they stated in four different courts, "the Sioux mean nothing." The Sioux fought hard and long for truth, honor and justice.

Choosing a new name without first telling the truth is just adding to the disgrace that has taken place at UND for more than seven years. The vast majority of alumni, North Dakotans and Sioux tribal members hold honor, integrity and respect at their very core. Sadly, the university administration today believes in none of that.

Cline is correct that in 2012, the state primary was 2-to-1 in support of dropping the name and image; but in January 2011, the citizens voiced their support by a 17-1 ratio.

As I wrote yesterday. This is why we must reject the Sundogs name. As long as the Sundogs name is still alive, there's a chance that UND ends up with this stupid nickname. A majority of UND fans, Students and Alumni reject this nickname.

In addition to the many good reasons Mario Solis presented in his recent letter to the editor for selection of the name Sundogs for UND, add this one: UND appears in the middle of the name—sUNDogs. I like the idea!
(Letter to the editor)

Margaret Williams,

Grand Forks